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[Music]

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hello and welcome to episode number 66

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of the point of convergence podcast as

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always

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i am your host exo academian

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in the long history of strange events

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occurring in the lives of human beings

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the drive for understanding has been not

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surprisingly shaped by the model of

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reality prevalent at the time

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thus while our distant ancestors saw the

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appearance of strange awe-inspiring

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non-human intelligences as a

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manifestation of angels and demons

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entities normally bound to the spiritual

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domain beyond this mortal coil

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modern westerners have tended to see

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more recent appearances of these

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non-human entities as the arrival of

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extraterrestrial entities who've

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traversed the vast expanse of outer

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space to get here in both of these

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described kinds of encounters the

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interpretation has less to do with the

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elements of the encounters themselves

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and more to do with the overarching

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meaning making model of a particular

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civilization

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and of course this is not just a

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time-bound phenomenon because even today

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a shamanistically oriented culture is

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likely to see these others in a very

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different light than a scientifically

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minded society shaped by the values of

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the enlightenment

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in fact when the gatekeepers of a

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particular society are convinced that

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certain kinds of described encounters

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just simply cannot be

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as in modern western societies

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then when these encounters are cloaked

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in a particularly potent degree of what

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is often termed high strangeness

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the event is just suppressed altogether

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lest the witness be deemed mentally

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unstable or of questionable credibility

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this of course doesn't mean that such

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events don't happen but merely that they

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have no place to be categorized and

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analyzed within a particular framework

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all that is to say the annals of

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non-conventional encounters from across

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time serve as a kind of road map for our

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shifting collective attempt to describe

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reality itself

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and to separate the understanding of

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these kinds of encounters from the

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overarching meaning model of a

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particular time and place in which they

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occurred is to miss a major point of the

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exercise for these matters work hand in

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hand in a coordinated and interwoven

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feedback loop of event and

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interpretation

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typically while a certain brave subset

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of pioneers are willing to question the

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meaning model of a particular time and

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place

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the overarching metanarrative doesn't

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begin to break down making room for new

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and transcendent hypotheses

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until the sheer volume of outlier data

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has created enough collective cognitive

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dissonance so as to make it clear that

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there is no other feasible way forward

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than to trailblaze a new metanarrative

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altogether

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speaking of trailblazing new

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meta-narratives today we're going to

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discuss the work of just such an

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individual

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donald hoffman an american cognitive

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psychologist and professor in the

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department of cognitive sciences at the

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university of california irvine with

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joint appointments in the department of

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logic and philosophy of science the

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department of philosophy and the school

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of computer science

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is someone who decades ago became

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convinced that the reality model that

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western society has been living under

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over the last several centuries

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simply cannot stand

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from his perspective and he is one of a

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growing segment within the scientific

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establishment

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the data arising from diverse fields of

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study has made it clear that physicalism

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the metaphysical view that all mental

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phenomena are ultimately physical

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phenomena or necessitated by physical

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phenomena is simply incorrect

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make no mistake hoffman's postulations

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are not based in imagination and wishful

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thinking

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no truth be told mathematical theorems

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and the implications of the theory of

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evolution by natural selection are what

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drive this new line of thinking

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these ideas put forth in a model he

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calls conscious realism have profound

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implications for our understanding of

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all that is and as it pertains to the

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usual subject matter of this podcast

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hoffman's work opens up new tantalizing

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and explanatory powerful ways of making

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sense of the strange encounters we've

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been discussing while also offering a

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robust explanation to make sense of the

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so-called fermi paradox

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it is the implications of hoffman's

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conscious realism as it pertains to the

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ufo phenomenon and general paranormality

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that we'll be going into a deep dive

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into in this the 66th episode of the

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[Music]

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as we begin this week's episode i'd just

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like to remind us all that when we form

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hypotheses to make sense of the bizarre

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array of elements we see on display with

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the ufo phenomenon

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we do so based on some assumptions about

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the underlying nature of reality it's

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important to keep that in mind

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now we have evolved to filter data

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through a series of assumptions

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this has allowed us to stay alive and

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navigate a complex world

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remember this statement because we will

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come back to it time and time again in

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this episode

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these assumptions lead us to certain

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hunches about what is going on in the

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world

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this is also true of what we see with

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the ufo phenomenon and general

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paranormality

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for instance when the modern saucer

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phenomenon took off in the united states

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in the 1940s it seemed a logical

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deduction to many if not most people in

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our modern civilization

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that since these craft seemed beyond the

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technological prowess of any

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nation-state player of the time

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they must be therefore the aeronautical

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property of some space-faring race that

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had traveled the vast expanse of the

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cosmos to visit our dazzling blue pearl

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of a planet

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while this may seem like the obvious

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conclusion based on the facts at hand

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there are actually myriad assumptions in

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play there though often those

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assumptions have been taken as so

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patently obvious to most of us that we

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are no longer even conscious of them

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being in play

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these foundational elements of any

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overarching meaning model are known as

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axioms an axiom is a statement or

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proposition which is regarded as being

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established accepted or self-evidently

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true

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so again based on our understanding of

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reality and what represented the final

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frontier of the time it made sense that

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the extraterrestrial hypothesis held

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sway

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now as the 20th century rolled on and

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our understanding of the cosmos and the

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underlying nature of reality grew

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the options on the table to make sense

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of the ufo phenomenon likewise expanded

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notice here that it's not that the

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nature of the encounters changed but

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rather that the development of a more

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complex multi-faceted reality model gave

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birth to new interpretive possibilities

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as i've mentioned numerous times on this

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podcast it was world-class boots on the

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ground researchers like jacques valle

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and john keel who first postulated these

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new possibilities

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why did they do this

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what evidence led them simultaneously

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away from the extraterrestrial

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hypothesis and towards notions like the

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interdimensional hypothesis

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well firstly they noted that the

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decidedly spiritual overtones along with

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heaping doses of what came to be known

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as high strangeness

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seemed to suggest something more complex

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and in valet's famous words interesting

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was in play

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in valley's case when he took the time

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to take the so-called thirty thousand

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foot view

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stepping back from our immediate context

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in the midst of a middle 20th century

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space race between the world's

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superpowers

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he noted remarkable overlap between

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elements of historical fairy lore and

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even deep religious mythos

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and the modern ufo phenomenon

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why was this the case

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on first blush it seems preposterous to

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assume that goblins and the little

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people of fairy lore would have anything

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in common with aliens arriving from

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andromeda and other far-flung cosmic

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locales

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not to mention most modern

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scientifically minded folk assumed alien

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life was almost a certainty

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while notions like the fae of distant

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human lore were rooted firmly in

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make-believe a vestige of those poor

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primitive folk of ancient history who

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knew nothing of gravity a spherical

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earth and the trustworthiness of the

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scientific method

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valet put these assumptions aside for a

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moment and asked a deeper more probing

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question

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as he has been prone to do throughout

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his career now stretching across many

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decades

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disregarding our modern assumptive

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filters regarding what can be

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why was it that 20th and 21st century

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scientifically minded well-educated

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otherwise normal and thoroughly credible

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people were having encounters with

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seemingly non-human entities that

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involves so many of the same elements we

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find documented in interactions with the

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fae of distant human lore

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and why were so many of these modern

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encounters cloaked in such a heavy fog

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of spiritual overtones

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so much so that it often led to a

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wide-ranging and permanent change in the

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world view of those impacted

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was it possible valet asked aloud that

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these modern folk were actually

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encountering the very same entities that

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our ancestors had grappled with in the

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deep reaches of our species history

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and was it possible that the more

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superficial differences between modern

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and ancient encounters had more to do

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with our assumptions which led to

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different interpretations of said events

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than real substantive differences in the

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encounters themselves

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alternatively was it possible that the

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seeming perceptual control that these

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non-human others wielded over human

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beings allowed for them to manifest

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differently to fit with our underlying

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and shifting expectations

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so as to shield them from a more

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penetrating and objective

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analysis furthermore was it possible

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that a notion such as objective analysis

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simply didn't apply in such encounters

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that the very nature of these paranormal

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events ensured a strange mixture of

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contemporary mythos and underlying

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reality

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ended up coloring the experiences at

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their very root

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00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:08,000
these were the questions that

288
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:10,640
researchers like valean kiel forerunners

289
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:12,079
in the field of paranormal and

290
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:15,279
ufological analysis were asking

291
00:11:19,190 --> 00:11:17,040
they asked outside the box

292
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:19,200
unconventional questions because from

293
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:21,040
their informed point of view

294
00:11:25,509 --> 00:11:22,800
the very nature of these encounters

295
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:25,519
themselves demanded that they do so

296
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:27,760
the overlapping fields of ufology and

297
00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:30,320
paranormal research are indebted to them

298
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:33,120
as a result because they took us in new

299
00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:35,920
and fruitful directions

300
00:11:40,389 --> 00:11:38,240
that said we would be doing a disservice

301
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:40,399
to these pioneering researchers if we

302
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:42,399
were to stop where they did

303
00:11:46,790 --> 00:11:45,040
that is to say if new data emerges that

304
00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:46,800
points in even more bizarre and

305
00:11:52,069 --> 00:11:49,279
unconventional directions we should take

306
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:52,079
up the charge boldly going wherever the

307
00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:53,920
evidence leads

308
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:55,760
from my point of view when i reflect on

309
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:58,160
the hypotheses that have been postulated

310
00:12:01,350 --> 00:12:00,079
thus far to make sense of the ufo

311
00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:01,360
phenomenon

312
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:03,279
while all of them may very well be in

313
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,600
play to some degree or another

314
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:07,920
there is a new line of evidence that has

315
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:10,000
emerged since the trailblazing days of

316
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,720
valley and keel that points in exactly

317
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:14,720
the kind of new and mind-bending

318
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:17,120
direction i just referenced

319
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:18,800
and it's that evidenced and the

320
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:21,440
implications it brings to the table if

321
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:23,680
indeed it is accurate that i want to

322
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:25,839
discuss today

323
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,320
as i've often said on this podcast the

324
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,399
shocking nature of the encounters people

325
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:32,399
have been having with a variety of

326
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:35,680
apparently non-human others over time

327
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:38,079
ultimately and inevitably leads to a

328
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:41,360
reframing of our very model of reality

329
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:42,959
that's what's in play

330
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:44,320
full stop

331
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:46,639
if these encounters are real and that's

332
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:48,639
a loaded term if ever there was one and

333
00:12:52,470 --> 00:12:50,560
we'll get to that but if these

334
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:52,480
encounters are real and i believe

335
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:54,480
evidence suggests they are

336
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,560
then our current model of reality needs

337
00:13:02,870 --> 00:12:59,040
not just some tweaking but an entire

338
00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:02,880
rewrite from the ground up as it were

339
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:04,720
and speaking of these questions around

340
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:06,800
the very nature of reality

341
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:09,040
here's a question we should begin with

342
00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:11,440
how do we know that what we define as

343
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:13,760
real really is so

344
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:15,600
how do we know we're not simply deluding

345
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:17,600
ourselves like we would argue our

346
00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:20,240
ancestors were doing so much of the time

347
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:22,560
when they from our point of view merely

348
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:25,040
made up stories to feel more secure

349
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:26,880
amidst an array of frightening and

350
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:28,959
unpredictable events

351
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:32,160
enter donald hoffman a man of our times

352
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:33,920
who is here to question virtually

353
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:36,000
everything we've come to so concretely

354
00:13:40,949 --> 00:13:38,639
believe is trustworthy in teaching us

355
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:40,959
about the actual underlying nature of

356
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:42,480
reality

357
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:44,560
to be sure the questions that hoffman's

358
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:47,519
work ends up opening up make valet and

359
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:50,720
kiehl's postulation seem comparatively

360
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:53,680
rather timid and tame

361
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:55,760
in the same way that new physics led to

362
00:14:00,550 --> 00:13:58,240
notions like a multiverse and hence to

363
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:00,560
the inter-dimensional hypothesis and

364
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:03,120
einsteinian space-time laid the

365
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,880
theoretical groundwork for the future

366
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,720
human hypothesis

367
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,639
hoffman's work is opening new doors of

368
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,800
possibility as well

369
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:12,480
in particular hoffman's work is

370
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,560
suggesting that consciousness

371
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:17,199
rather than matter and energy may be the

372
00:14:21,829 --> 00:14:19,920
substrate of all that is and that what

373
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:21,839
is central to that reality are the

374
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:24,720
interactions of what he calls conscious

375
00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:25,760
agents

376
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:27,920
in an overarching model he calls

377
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,040
conscious realism but there's a lot to

378
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,839
unpack so let's take this one step at a

379
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:35,519
time

380
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:37,440
now the book we'll be discussing today

381
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:39,760
is hoffman's book the case against

382
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:42,720
reality why evolution hid the truth from

383
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:45,440
our eyes i highly recommend this book as

384
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:48,000
much as i can recommend a book i think

385
00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:50,240
it has startling implications not just

386
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:52,399
for our understanding of reality but of

387
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:54,160
course as well for our understanding of

388
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:57,199
what's going on with the ufo phenomenon

389
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:00,240
and general paranormality

390
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,800
this is the central question

391
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:04,639
as described in the publisher's

392
00:15:10,150 --> 00:15:07,519
description of hoffman's book

393
00:15:10,829 --> 00:15:10,160
quote can we trust our senses to tell us

394
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:10,839
the

395
00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:13,440
truth challenging leading scientific

396
00:15:18,069 --> 00:15:15,199
theories that claim that our senses

397
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:18,079
report back objective reality

398
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:19,920
cognitive scientist

399
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:22,079
donald hoffman argues that while we

400
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:24,720
should take our perceptions seriously we

401
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:27,040
should not take them literally

402
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:28,959
how can it be possible that the world we

403
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:31,600
see is not objective reality

404
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:33,759
and how can our senses be useful if they

405
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:36,160
are not communicating the truth

406
00:15:39,829 --> 00:15:38,160
hoffman grapples with these questions

407
00:15:41,749 --> 00:15:39,839
and more over the course of this

408
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:41,759
eye-opening work

409
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,079
ever since homo sapiens has walked the

410
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:46,320
earth natural selection has favored

411
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:48,880
perception that hides the truth and

412
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:52,079
guides us towards useful action shaping

413
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,000
our senses to keep us alive and

414
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:55,839
reproducing

415
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:57,920
we observe a speeding car and do not

416
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:00,639
walk in front of it we see mold growing

417
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:03,040
on bread and do not eat it

418
00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:05,360
these impressions though are not

419
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:07,199
objective reality

420
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:09,360
just like a file icon on a desktop

421
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:11,839
screen is a useful symbol rather than a

422
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:14,079
genuine representation of what a

423
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:16,160
computer file looks like

424
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:19,279
the objects we see every day are merely

425
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:22,240
icons allowing us to navigate the world

426
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:24,800
safely and with ease

427
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,880
the real world implications for this

428
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:28,880
discovery are huge

429
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,360
from examining why fashion designers

430
00:16:36,069 --> 00:16:33,440
create clothes that give the illusion of

431
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,079
a more attractive body shape to studying

432
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:38,560
how companies use color to elicit

433
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:41,040
specific emotions in consumers

434
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:43,199
and even dismantling the very notion

435
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,320
that space-time is objective reality

436
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:48,639
the case against reality dares us to

437
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:51,279
question everything we thought we knew

438
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:53,120
about the world we see

439
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:54,639
unquote

440
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,959
now as we begin discussing hoffman and

441
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:59,279
his work i want to make it clear that he

442
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:01,440
used to be a physicalist he began in

443
00:17:05,429 --> 00:17:03,120
mainstream science

444
00:17:07,110 --> 00:17:05,439
was only when he became convinced that

445
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:07,120
physicalism as i said in the

446
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,319
introduction

447
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:11,039
is untenable that he looked for new

448
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:12,799
avenues to pursue

449
00:17:18,069 --> 00:17:15,520
and he ended up with consciousness

450
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,079
now specifically what problem did he run

451
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:20,799
into from within the physicalist model

452
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:23,839
that made him abandon it altogether

453
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:25,280
well it really comes down to what is

454
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,480
called the hard problem of consciousness

455
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:31,600
which is defined as such quote the hard

456
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:33,919
problem of consciousness defined by

457
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:36,080
chalmers in 1995

458
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:37,600
is the problem of explaining the

459
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:40,080
relationship between physical phenomena

460
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:42,960
such as brain processes and experience

461
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:45,679
i.e phenomenal consciousness or mental

462
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,400
states and events with phenomenal

463
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:50,400
qualities or qualia

464
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:51,679
unquote

465
00:17:55,590 --> 00:17:53,840
now for a long time physicalists assumed

466
00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:55,600
that eventually we would learn more

467
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:58,320
about the brain and explain how

468
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:01,280
this lump of matter inside of our skull

469
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:03,679
could actually generate consciousness

470
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:06,640
could generate feeling and the like

471
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:09,360
now in his book the case against reality

472
00:18:13,029 --> 00:18:10,880
hoffman addresses this question

473
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:13,039
specifically in talking about what we

474
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:15,360
would need in a physicalist model for

475
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:16,799
consciousness

476
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:19,280
quote what do we want in a scientific

477
00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:20,960
theory of consciousness

478
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:23,200
consider the case of tasting basil

479
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:25,280
versus hearing a siren

480
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:27,200
for a theory that proposes that brain

481
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,080
activity causes conscious experiences

482
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:33,039
we want mathematical laws or principles

483
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:35,520
that state precisely which brain

484
00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:37,360
activities cause the conscious

485
00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:39,679
experience of tasting basil

486
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:41,840
precisely why this activity does not

487
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:44,080
cause the experience of say hearing a

488
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:46,799
siren and precisely how this activity

489
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:49,440
must change to transform the experience

490
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:52,400
from tasting basil to say tasting

491
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:53,679
rosemary

492
00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:56,000
these laws or principles must apply

493
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,440
across species or else explain precisely

494
00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:01,520
why different species require different

495
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:02,880
laws

496
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,559
have ever been produced

497
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:10,799
unquote and again that really gets to

498
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:12,480
the root of it that's the hard problem

499
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,240
of consciousness

500
00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:16,240
and as hoffman just said there because

501
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,640
no ideas have even been proposed to

502
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:20,720
plausibly explain how this could even be

503
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:23,679
the case within a physicalist model

504
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,080
hoffman ultimately abandoned physicalism

505
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:28,559
and moved towards consciousness as a

506
00:19:34,150 --> 00:19:32,000
primary substrate of reality itself

507
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:34,160
now as you heard mentioned in the book

508
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:36,640
publisher's description of this book

509
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:39,120
much of the implications of hoffman's

510
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:40,160
theory

511
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:42,559
conscious realism come down to the

512
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:45,200
implications of evolution by natural

513
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,320
selection

514
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:48,400
now what does evolution by natural

515
00:19:52,470 --> 00:19:50,559
selection actually do

516
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:52,480
well again according to hoffman's book

517
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:53,520
quote

518
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:56,559
we encounter a startling fitness beats

519
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:59,120
truth fbt theorem

520
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:01,200
which states that evolution by natural

521
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:03,679
selection does not favor true

522
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:05,200
perceptions

523
00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:08,400
it routinely drives them to extinction

524
00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:10,480
instead natural selection favors

525
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:13,120
perceptions that hide the truth and

526
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:15,280
guide useful action

527
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:17,120
he goes on to say elsewhere our

528
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:19,520
perceptions misled us about our place in

529
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:20,640
the universe

530
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,960
but the deeper message is this

531
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,280
our perceptions can mislead us about the

532
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:27,919
very nature of the universe itself

533
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:30,159
we are prone to falsely believe that

534
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:33,120
certain limitations and idiosyncrasies

535
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:36,240
of our perceptions are genuine insights

536
00:20:41,029 --> 00:20:38,559
into objective reality

537
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:41,039
and furthermore elsewhere he says quote

538
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:43,679
the tinkering of evolution can concoct

539
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:46,960
perceptual interfaces with endless forms

540
00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:49,600
most beautiful and most wonderful

541
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:52,000
the vast majority of these however are

542
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:54,720
to us most inconceivable

543
00:20:59,110 --> 00:20:56,880
evolution is not finished tinkering with

544
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:59,120
the perceptual interfaces of homo

545
00:21:03,350 --> 00:21:00,320
sapiens

546
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:03,360
the mutations that bless 1 and 25 with

547
00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:06,080
some form of synesthesia are surely part

548
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:07,520
of the process

549
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:09,679
and some of these mutations might catch

550
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:10,559
on

551
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:22,480
freely explores endless forms of sensory

552
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:25,440
interfaces hitting now and then on novel

553
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:28,240
ways to shepherd our endless foraging

554
00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:30,799
for fitness unquote

555
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:32,240
now by the way when he mentions

556
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:34,159
verticality there he's talking about

557
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,240
truthfulness being actually aligned with

558
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:39,039
reality itself and his point is that is

559
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:40,880
not what evolution does

560
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:43,200
evolution serves up subjective

561
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,400
interfaces

562
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:46,640
virtual realities if you will that we

563
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:48,720
experience through our perceptions in

564
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:51,039
order to keep us alive and to perpetuate

565
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:52,320
the species

566
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:55,120
not at all to show us reality

567
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:56,799
and just to make this clear this is not

568
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,480
a guessing game he's not merely

569
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:00,320
postulating here there have been

570
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:03,280
mathematical theorems that prove

571
00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:05,679
that our ancestors that saw more of

572
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:06,799
reality

573
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:09,600
would have been driven to extinction

574
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,200
full stop

575
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:13,760
in an interview with quantum magazine

576
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:16,080
hoffman made this even more clear

577
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:18,159
he was quoted as saying quote

578
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,240
the classical argument is that those of

579
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:22,960
our ancestors who saw more accurately

580
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:24,880
had a competitive advantage over those

581
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:27,520
who saw less accurately and thus were

582
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,159
more likely to pass on their genes that

583
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:32,000
coded for those more accurate

584
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,280
perceptions

585
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:35,520
so after thousands of generations we can

586
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:37,120
be quite confident that we're the

587
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:39,840
offspring of those who saw accurately

588
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,159
and so we see accurately

589
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:44,640
that sounds very plausible but i think

590
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:47,440
it is utterly false it misunderstands

591
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:49,919
the fundamental fact about evolution

592
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:51,600
which is that it's about fitness

593
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:54,000
functions mathematical functions that

594
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:56,640
describe how well a given strategy

595
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,720
achieves the goal of survival and

596
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:00,240
reproduction

597
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:02,640
the mathematical physicist chitan

598
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:03,760
prakash

599
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:05,840
proved a theorem that i devised that

600
00:23:08,310 --> 00:23:06,640
says

601
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:08,320
according to evolution by natural

602
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:11,039
selection an organism that sees reality

603
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:14,480
as it is will never be more fit than an

604
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:17,600
organism of equal complexity that sees

605
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:20,400
none of reality but is just tuned to

606
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:21,520
fitness

607
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:22,640
never

608
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:23,840
unquote

609
00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:26,640
and in that same magazine interview

610
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:28,880
hoffman brings up his famous desktop

611
00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:32,080
interface metaphor where he says quote

612
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:33,840
there's a metaphor that's only been

613
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:36,080
available to us in the past 30 or 40

614
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:39,520
years and that's the desktop interface

615
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:41,919
suppose there's a blue rectangular icon

616
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:43,279
on the lower right corner of your

617
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,039
computer's desktop

618
00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:47,120
does that mean that the file itself is

619
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:49,279
blue and rectangular and lives in the

620
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:51,760
lower right corner of your computer

621
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:54,080
of course not but those are the only

622
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:56,000
things that can be asserted about

623
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:59,039
anything on the desktop it has color

624
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:00,880
position and shape

625
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:03,120
those are the only categories available

626
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,760
to you and yet none of them are true

627
00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:08,080
about the file itself or anything in the

628
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,120
computer

629
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:11,360
they couldn't possibly be true

630
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:13,520
that's an interesting thing you could

631
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:15,440
not form a true description of the

632
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,440
innards of the computer if your entire

633
00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:19,679
view of reality was confined to the

634
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:23,520
desktop and yet the desktop is useful

635
00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:25,840
that blue rectangular icon guides my

636
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:28,400
behavior and it hides a complex reality

637
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:30,320
that i don't need to know

638
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:33,120
that's the key idea evolution has shaped

639
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:34,960
us with perceptions that allow us to

640
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,080
survive they guide adaptive behaviors

641
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:40,640
but part of that involves hiding from us

642
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:43,360
the stuff we don't need to know and

643
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:46,080
that's pretty much all of reality

644
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:48,159
whatever reality might be

645
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:49,919
if you had to spend all that time

646
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:53,120
figuring it out the tiger would eat you

647
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:54,559
unquote

648
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:56,640
now as hopman points out there the

649
00:25:01,430 --> 00:24:59,120
desktop interface metaphor is a very

650
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:01,440
useful one because we know that when we

651
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:04,799
drag a file folder into a trash can so

652
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:07,120
to speak on our desktop that's not

653
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:09,120
actually describing what's really going

654
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:12,000
on in fact it's not even close it's an

655
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:13,919
approximation that tells us what our

656
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:16,400
actions will produce in other words it's

657
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,799
a kind of fitness function like we see

658
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:20,320
with evolution

659
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:21,919
what's really going on with the computer

660
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:24,799
behind the scenes involves transistors

661
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:27,679
and zeros and ones in binary code and of

662
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,440
course that's nothing like what we see

663
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:31,520
with the desktop interface

664
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:33,760
it is related but only in a very

665
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:37,039
abstracted way kind of way

666
00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:39,200
now again i understand that this is hard

667
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:41,840
to wrap our heads around our intuition

668
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:43,840
tells us that what we experience is

669
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:44,960
reality

670
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:46,960
how else would we conclude anything else

671
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:49,279
it's all we've ever known and on top of

672
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:51,760
that we all say the same things about it

673
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:53,760
when i look at a tree in a forest you

674
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:56,159
generally see the same tree basically so

675
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:57,679
that gives us confidence that we're

676
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:00,159
seeing something really there beyond

677
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:02,320
just our perception but again what

678
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:04,720
hoffman's saying is that's not true

679
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:06,960
and in terms of us both seeing the same

680
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:08,799
thing and giving us more confidence

681
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,360
therefore that it's real

682
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:13,919
intersubjective agreement does not equal

683
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,440
truthfulness

684
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:17,600
because we are the same species sharing

685
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:20,159
the same interface we should expect

686
00:26:24,789 --> 00:26:21,600
common ground

687
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,799
our bias and lack of additional context

688
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:26,720
leads us to believe we are experiencing

689
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:29,039
reality as it actually is

690
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,039
but again getting back to the desktop

691
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:33,360
interface metaphor that's akin to

692
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:35,279
assuming that if we all use microsoft

693
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:37,919
windows to run our computers that

694
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,240
microsoft windows is fundamental to

695
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:42,960
computer programming of course it's not

696
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:45,760
it's just a shared software interface

697
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:48,000
and what a shock one might find when

698
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:51,120
stumbling upon ios the apple desktop

699
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:53,440
interface which presents the reality of

700
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:56,640
computer experience very differently

701
00:27:01,830 --> 00:26:58,960
so again think about this desktop

702
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,840
interface metaphor and don't be confused

703
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:03,840
or led astray assuming that just because

704
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:06,080
we all see the same thing generally that

705
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:08,400
that means what we're seeing is real

706
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:11,039
because we are a single species that

707
00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:13,679
arose from the same genetic background

708
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:16,400
we have been evolved to see reality in a

709
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:19,200
certain way we share the same paradigm

710
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,399
of a conceptual interface and that's it

711
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:24,640
it doesn't say anything about objective

712
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:26,720
reality beyond that

713
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:28,720
now later on i'll go into more of the

714
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:30,720
implications for what this means for the

715
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:33,840
ufo phenomenon and general paranormality

716
00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:35,600
the encounters human beings apparently

717
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:38,240
have with non-human others

718
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:40,880
of course what people often ask is for

719
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:43,360
abduction experiences for instance are

720
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:45,440
they actually real or is it just

721
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:46,880
happening in their so-called

722
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:49,279
consciousness is it more like a dream

723
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:51,600
state as opposed to real

724
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:53,360
but of course we realize when we think

725
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:55,279
about the implications of what hoffman

726
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:57,120
is proposing here

727
00:28:01,830 --> 00:27:59,520
that reality itself is not what we think

728
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:01,840
it is when we say is something real all

729
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:04,320
we're really saying is is it happening

730
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:06,880
in our usual desktop interface kind of

731
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,159
environment

732
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:10,720
and if it's a very advanced intelligence

733
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:13,440
a non-human intelligence an alien

734
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:15,520
intelligence alien to the desktop

735
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:17,360
interface we all share

736
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:19,039
then of course it's not necessarily

737
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:21,200
going to render in the same way that

738
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:24,080
icons usual to the desktop interface

739
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:25,200
render

740
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:26,720
i know this is hard to wrap our heads

741
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:29,200
around but it's key and i think this

742
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,520
opens up interesting avenues to pursue

743
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:33,440
in terms of explaining some of the high

744
00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:34,640
strangeness

745
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,399
some of the ways that these others seem

746
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:38,880
to show up in ways that defy the rule

747
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:41,120
set of our reality

748
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:42,559
especially when you think about our

749
00:28:46,630 --> 00:28:44,960
reality more like a virtual reality that

750
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:46,640
we all share

751
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:48,240
let's get back to that interview in

752
00:28:51,669 --> 00:28:50,480
quantum magazine that helps flesh us out

753
00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:51,679
a little more

754
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:54,080
the interviewer asks so everything we

755
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:56,240
see is one big illusion

756
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:58,399
and hoffman responds

757
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:00,320
we've been shaped to have perceptions

758
00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:02,559
that keep us alive so we have to take

759
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,039
them seriously if i see something that i

760
00:29:10,389 --> 00:29:08,080
think of as a snake i don't pick it up

761
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:10,399
if i see a train i don't step in front

762
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:13,279
of it i've evolved these symbols to keep

763
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:15,600
me alive so i have to take them

764
00:29:19,830 --> 00:29:18,399
seriously but it's a logical flaw to

765
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:19,840
think that if we have to take it

766
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:22,080
seriously we also have to take it

767
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:23,520
literally

768
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:25,840
then the interviewer asks if snakes

769
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:28,240
aren't snakes and trains aren't trained

770
00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:29,440
what are they

771
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:31,279
and hoffman responds

772
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:33,520
snakes and trains like the particles of

773
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:36,240
physics have no objective observer

774
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:39,120
independent features the snake i see is

775
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:41,279
a description created by my sensory

776
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:43,760
system to inform me of the fitness

777
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:46,320
consequences of my actions

778
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,880
evolution shapes acceptable solutions

779
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:50,799
not optimal ones

780
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:53,120
a snake is an acceptable solution to the

781
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:55,440
problem of telling me how to act in a

782
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:56,880
situation

783
00:30:01,510 --> 00:29:58,960
my snakes and trains are my mental

784
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:01,520
representations your snakes and trains

785
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:03,760
are your mental representations

786
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:05,200
unquote

787
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:06,960
now earlier on when we were talking

788
00:30:10,149 --> 00:30:09,200
about the work of jacques villa and john

789
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:10,159
keel

790
00:30:15,110 --> 00:30:12,799
i mentioned how new hypotheses rolled

791
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,120
out as our understanding of reality

792
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,000
became more complex and offered up new

793
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,039
potential avenues for sources for some

794
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:23,279
of these non-human others we were

795
00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:25,520
apparently interacting with

796
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:27,440
but that said when you think of each of

797
00:30:33,029 --> 00:30:30,080
the common hypotheses we see banteed

798
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:33,039
about they generally are based in an

799
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:34,960
understanding that space-time is

800
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:37,520
foundational that somehow space-time is

801
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:40,159
an accurate description of reality

802
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,159
even when we talk about a multiverse and

803
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:43,840
the idea that there may be many

804
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,799
universes within a totality and that

805
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:48,240
some of these others may be coming from

806
00:30:52,070 --> 00:30:50,000
an alternate earth or some other

807
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:52,080
alternate dimension

808
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:54,320
physically we're still thinking in terms

809
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:55,679
of space time

810
00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:57,600
but one of the interesting implications

811
00:31:01,990 --> 00:31:00,320
of hoffman's work is its space time is

812
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:02,000
not really real

813
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:03,760
and just to be clear it's not just

814
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:06,080
hoffman who's saying this there are many

815
00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:08,159
physicists cutting-edge physicists at

816
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:10,399
the leading edge of their field who are

817
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:12,320
recognizing the same thing

818
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:14,320
for instance nathan seberg of the

819
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:16,320
institute of advanced study at princeton

820
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,120
said

821
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:19,840
i quote i am almost certain that space

822
00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:22,320
and time are illusions these are

823
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:24,399
primitive notions that will be replaced

824
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:28,159
by something more sophisticated unquote

825
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:30,320
and hoffman goes on to say in his book

826
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:33,440
quote physicists realize that space-time

827
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:36,240
is doomed space-time cannot be

828
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:39,200
foundational in physics a new theory is

829
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:42,080
required in which space-time objects

830
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:44,480
their properties and their fiction of

831
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:46,799
cause and effect sprout from a more

832
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:49,840
primordial ground unquote

833
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,360
so let's make that really clear he's

834
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:53,360
saying that physicists are realizing

835
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,080
this that space-time as a conceptual

836
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,399
notion to describe our reality from a

837
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:01,200
foundational point of view cannot stand

838
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:03,919
it is largely untenable at this point we

839
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:06,960
need something else which gives life to

840
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:08,880
which creates an epiphenomenon something

841
00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:11,039
that comes from it that looks like

842
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:14,240
space-time objects their properties and

843
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:17,440
the fiction of cause and effect

844
00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:18,799
very interesting there because when you

845
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:20,799
think about synchronicity different

846
00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:22,880
elements of high strangeness that we've

847
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:24,799
noted that i've experienced many many

848
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,039
times almost on an increasing level over

849
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:29,279
time we have some understanding of how

850
00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:31,840
that can be going on because again usual

851
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:34,399
cause and effect is more like a kind of

852
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:36,640
action within our interface something

853
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:39,360
more primary is what's really going on

854
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:41,360
and here we might remember what einstein

855
00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:44,640
said of these matters he said i quote

856
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:46,799
time and space are modes by which we

857
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:49,200
think and not conditions in which we

858
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:50,159
live

859
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:52,000
unquote

860
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:54,080
okay so this really comes down to a

861
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:57,279
notion like realism being undone

862
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:59,360
this is what hoffman has to say in that

863
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:01,279
regard quote

864
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:04,399
i want to propose that realism is false

865
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:06,000
and what we're seeing is more like a

866
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:08,240
user interface or a virtual reality

867
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:09,360
headset

868
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:11,120
think about a virtual reality game of

869
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:13,600
tennis you're playing vr tennis with a

870
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:15,840
friend you both have your headset and

871
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:18,080
body suits on you see your friend's

872
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,240
avatar on a tennis court and you start

873
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:22,640
playing your friend hits the tennis ball

874
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:24,960
to you and you hit the tennis ball back

875
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,279
to your friend but is your friend seeing

876
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:29,120
exactly the same tennis ball that you're

877
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:30,000
seeing

878
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:32,240
well of course not there's no public

879
00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:34,960
tennis ball you have some photons being

880
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:37,760
sprayed to your eye by your headset and

881
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:39,840
those photons are causing your visual

882
00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:42,399
system to create your own perception of

883
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,120
what you would call a green tennis ball

884
00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:47,279
your friend has a headset on which is

885
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,760
spraying photons to his eye and his

886
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:51,840
visual system is creating his own green

887
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:54,159
tennis ball perception

888
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:55,679
it turns out that both of these

889
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:58,720
perceptions are coordinated by something

890
00:34:01,990 --> 00:33:59,600
else

891
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:02,000
namely a super computer that's sending

892
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:04,799
the photons to both headsets causing

893
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,760
both headsets to work in coordination

894
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:09,679
all the things that we would do to say

895
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:11,919
that objects really exist even when

896
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,320
they're not perceived hold here in

897
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:16,000
virtual reality

898
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:17,520
that doesn't mean that the tennis ball

899
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:20,399
exists and has any physical properties

900
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:22,800
when it's not perceived it just means

901
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:25,440
that there is some objective reality

902
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:26,639
unquote

903
00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:28,800
and so from all this from all these

904
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:30,560
implications of the research that

905
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:32,079
hoffman has done and again i want to

906
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:33,839
make it clear these are based on

907
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:36,399
mathematical theorems this is not just

908
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:38,879
postulation the reason why it's so hard

909
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:40,720
to really reckon with this is because

910
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:43,200
it's so counter-intuitive not because

911
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:45,040
it's not well supported by the evidence

912
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:46,879
it really is

913
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:48,720
but again from hoffman's point of view

914
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:52,240
he sees consciousness as primary and

915
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:54,720
aspects like matter and energy are epi

916
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:57,119
phenomena within consciousness and not

917
00:35:02,230 --> 00:34:59,599
the other way around as reductionistic

918
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,240
materialism would have you believe and

919
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:04,560
so what hoffman proposes is something he

920
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:07,440
calls conscious realism which he defines

921
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:09,359
like this quote

922
00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:12,240
conscious realism makes a bold claim

923
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:14,720
consciousness not space-time and its

924
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:17,839
objects is fundamental reality and is

925
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:20,320
probably described as a network of

926
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:22,880
conscious agents to earn its keep

927
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:25,200
conscious realism must do serious work

928
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:27,920
ahead it must ground a theory of quantum

929
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:30,320
gravity explain the emergence of our

930
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:32,960
space-time interface and its objects

931
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,800
explain the appearance of darwinian

932
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:37,200
evolution within that interface and

933
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:39,599
explain the evolutionary emergence of

934
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,440
human psychology

935
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:42,880
unquote

936
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:45,359
now this is key what he's saying is

937
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:47,119
whenever you postulate something a

938
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:50,000
hypothesis you begin with certain axioms

939
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:53,200
certain givens you say give me this and

940
00:35:57,109 --> 00:35:55,280
from that if i can spin up everything

941
00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:57,119
else in reality then there's a lot of

942
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:59,760
explanatory power behind my hypothesis

943
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:01,520
behind my model

944
00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:03,920
and believe me there are just as many of

945
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:07,119
these axioms these unproven aspects of

946
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:09,920
reality that are behind reductionistic

947
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:11,200
materialism

948
00:36:15,430 --> 00:36:12,960
what hoffman is saying is

949
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:15,440
give me consciousness let's begin there

950
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:17,200
and if this is really pointing to

951
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:20,240
reality as it really is then from it i

952
00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:22,480
should be able to spin up space-time

953
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:25,520
human psychology quantum gravity and the

954
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:27,440
like and that's exactly what he's

955
00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:30,160
pursuing now in his ongoing work

956
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:31,760
and now i'd like to offer up a few

957
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:33,200
concluding thoughts for your

958
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:34,960
consideration

959
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,359
as i've been saying this whole notion is

960
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:39,680
certainly counter-intuitive

961
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:42,320
but how could it not be after all

962
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:44,160
imagine you were born with a virtual

963
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:46,480
reality headset on and spent your entire

964
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:49,040
life that way and assume everyone around

965
00:36:53,829 --> 00:36:51,599
you from your species had on that same

966
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:53,839
headset or that same kind of headset

967
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:55,839
from a shared interface

968
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:58,000
referencing the same virtual reality

969
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:59,359
worldscape

970
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:02,000
of course that would seem and feel real

971
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:04,880
fundamental how could it not it's all

972
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:06,880
you and everyone around you that you can

973
00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:09,680
communicate with has ever known

974
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:12,320
that's point number one now point number

975
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:13,119
two

976
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:14,560
someone might argue that this leans

977
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:16,960
heavily on the evolution by natural

978
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:18,160
selection

979
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:21,599
that theory holds sway in this model

980
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:23,599
now what hoffman would say is there

981
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:25,760
probably is something more primary than

982
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:27,839
what looks to us like evolution by

983
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:30,000
natural selection but nevertheless

984
00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:32,000
that's the way it appears in our desktop

985
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:34,400
interface and it is pointing it like a

986
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:36,960
road map towards something that is real

987
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:39,040
that is fundamental that is evolving

988
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,000
consciousness itself

989
00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:44,640
thirdly hoffman suggests reality as it

990
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:48,079
really is is absolutely teeming with

991
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:49,040
life

992
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:51,359
but that we haven't found it and this is

993
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:53,359
of course described in the fermi paradox

994
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:54,400
which says

995
00:37:59,109 --> 00:37:56,720
if the universe is so huge and if there

996
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:59,119
should be plenty of planets with the

997
00:38:03,270 --> 00:38:00,800
environmental conditions that would give

998
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:03,280
birth to life why haven't we found it

999
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:05,520
why haven't we come across space-faring

1000
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,320
civilizations or found them with seti

1001
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,400
and whatnot and he's arguing that it's

1002
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:12,320
because we're looking in all the wrong

1003
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:15,040
places that the space-time construct

1004
00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:18,160
itself is part of our interface and he's

1005
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:20,800
saying that actually the outer reality

1006
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:23,680
beyond that interface is likely teeming

1007
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:25,359
with life and again not just because he

1008
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:27,920
wishes it to be the case he thinks this

1009
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,880
model

1010
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,480
again based on evolution of

1011
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:32,320
consciousness and consciousness being

1012
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:35,440
primary would give birth to a myriad

1013
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:37,599
number of consciousnesses but again

1014
00:38:40,470 --> 00:38:39,359
we've just been looking in the wrong

1015
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:40,480
place

1016
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:42,640
we need to look outside of our construct

1017
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:44,560
to find them

1018
00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:46,960
now do we have any hope of being able to

1019
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:49,520
look beyond the confines of our own

1020
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:51,920
desktop interface which is space time as

1021
00:38:56,710 --> 00:38:53,760
we're talking about today

1022
00:38:57,990 --> 00:38:56,720
well fascinatingly hoffman believes yes

1023
00:39:03,430 --> 00:38:58,000
we can

1024
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,440
ai as it were that allows us to hack out

1025
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:05,839
of the construct and therefore make

1026
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:08,800
contact with these numerous others these

1027
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,359
other intelligences these aliens beyond

1028
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:13,359
the construct that he believes are

1029
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:16,240
literally all around us

1030
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,200
now a fascinating notion to consider

1031
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:21,359
is that these others the aliens we've

1032
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:23,280
been interacting with or at least some

1033
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:24,240
of them

1034
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:27,040
may have already arrived at just such

1035
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:29,440
technological prowess and this has

1036
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:32,640
allowed them to hack in to our shared

1037
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:34,400
virtual reality

1038
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:36,400
if indeed this is about an outside

1039
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:38,560
intelligence hacking into our shared

1040
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,119
virtual reality our shared desktop

1041
00:39:44,550 --> 00:39:43,839
interface which is space time as we know

1042
00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:44,560
it

1043
00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:46,880
this goes a long way towards potentially

1044
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:48,800
explaining much of the very high

1045
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:51,440
strangeness that is so long left us

1046
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:52,800
perplexed

1047
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:54,640
after all if what we have long

1048
00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:57,200
considered objective reality is more

1049
00:40:02,870 --> 00:39:59,920
like a long-running program than using

1050
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:02,880
that same metaphor a hyper-intelligence

1051
00:40:07,829 --> 00:40:05,119
could hack that program producing

1052
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:07,839
phenomena that appear startling bizarre

1053
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:10,240
and sometimes even absurd to those

1054
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:12,400
living according to the rule set of that

1055
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:15,359
particular virtual reality program

1056
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:18,160
the rule set we live according to again

1057
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:20,720
has been shaped by evolution it is not

1058
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:23,599
any more ultimately real than the set of

1059
00:40:29,109 --> 00:40:26,480
a video game and as such an outside

1060
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:29,119
intelligence could hack that system and

1061
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:32,079
play by rules that defy and bewilder the

1062
00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:35,119
expectations of those existing within

1063
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:36,319
the system

1064
00:40:42,069 --> 00:40:39,359
i.e us

1065
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:42,079
and on that note we've come to the close

1066
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,920
of another edition of the point of

1067
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:45,839
convergence podcast

1068
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:47,839
if you'd like to support this podcast

1069
00:40:51,359 --> 00:40:53,430
exo patreon.com

1070
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:55,589
but until next time friends from deep

1071
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:57,359
within the blue ridge mountains of north

1072
00:41:02,330 --> 00:40:58,560
carolina

1073
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:02,340
this is exo academian signing out